‍Emily:

‍Thank you so much for taking the time to chat today, Kim! It is truly an honor to get to learn from you, and get to know you better.  It is not a secret to anyone that I’ve worked with that your work, Radical Candor, influenced me deeply. As we’ve built the team at Edera, it has been the cornerstone of how we’ve learned to communicate and provide feedback to each other. I’ve read a lot of books around teamwork and communication, but your approach is by far the most relatable, easy to understand, and easy to implement. You also recently released a book, Radical Respect, diving more into creating just workplaces, which we’re really excited about!

In our industry, in tech, there’s a lot of talk about brilliant jerks and there’s a lot of tolerance for them. At Edera, we believe it is rarely an either/or situation. We don’t need to choose between being a jerk or a pushover, nor do we need to choose between promoting a diverse workforce or generating positive cash flow. That success is found in the gray areas, and oftentimes discomfort. Your writing in your books reflect much of this, too. Can you tell us more about your philosophy here, and how you’ve worked with teams to address this over your career?

Kim: 

I wrote recently, “Emotional dysregulation, bullying, and bloviating are not leadership attributes. People who cannot manage themselves should not manage others. Leaders who can self-regulate understand the wisdom of accepting checks and balances on their own power from employees, boards, and the government. Humanity’s superpower is our ability to collaborate. Great leaders, including great founders, know how to bring people together and help them work better together. They create collaboration hierarchies, not dominance hierarchies. They accept checks on their own power.”

Another way of saying the same thing is that it’s better to have a hole on your team than an asshole 🙂

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Emily:

That may have just become one of my favorite quotes of all time. I love that.

‍So, there are a lot of leadership gurus and professional coaches in our social feeds, and everyone has their own style or philosophy. Being that you’ve been a leader in the tech Silicon Valley scene, and have seen a lot through your consulting with many companies over the years, what do you think is the most important thing leaders can do to influence their work culture in a positive way?

Kim: 

One of the most impactful things leaders can do to make their work culture better is to embrace Radical Candor. 

Radical Candor is about caring personally while challenging directly. This fosters trust and respect, where team members can feel safe to express their ideas, concerns, and feedback without fear. This enhances collaboration and innovation but also helps retain top performers and promotes growth.

Leaders should solicit feedback themselves while demonstrating vulnerability and openness. They should also focus on giving specific and sincere praise and kind and clear criticism. This helps team members understand what success looks like as well as how they can improve.

It is possible for leaders to build strong relationships with their teams which leads to a more engaged, productive, and positive work culture. Leadership is not just about guiding teams to achieve results, but also about building a workplace where everyone feels seen, heard, and supported.

"When They Win, You Win" by Russ Laraway is also a great read which provides additional insights into effective leadership.

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Emily:

‍I haven’t heard about Russ Laraway’s book before - will definitely check that out!  Speaking of books, feedback is a critical theme of the books you’ve written. And something I continuously see leaders struggle to receive, which quickly erodes a healthy, innovative work environment. How can leaders, especially executives and founders, take and implement feedback from their teams? And what do you think is the greatest barrier to get past with leadership being receptive to it hearing feedback in the first place?

Kim: 

Receiving and implementing feedback effectively is definitely fundamental in fostering a healthy and innovative work environment. 

I will say - the greatest barrier leaders face in being receptive to feedback is often fear - fear of vulnerability, fear of appearing weak, or fear of change. To overcome this, leaders need to practice valuing growth over perfection and understanding that feedback is a gift! Something that leads to not only personal improvement, but betterment to the organization, too.  Leaders shifting from a command-and-control mindset to one of collaboration and openness is powerful. As soon as leaders can recognize feedback is not a threat but an opportunity to enhance their leadership and the work environment as whole, a lot can open up for them and their team.

Here are a few tangible steps that I suggest to help leaders implement receiving feedback:

Solicit Feedback First: Leaders should actively seek feedback before giving it. This shows vulnerability and sets a precedent that openness is welcome. It’s crucial to have a go-to question that encourages honest responses. Instead of asking, “Do you have any feedback for me?” which often leads to vague answers, try something more specific like, “What’s something I did last week that made it difficult to work with me?”

Embrace Discomfort: After posing a question, leaders should embrace the silence and allow their team members the space to respond. This can be uncomfortable, but it is so important. You can even count silently for a few seconds to help manage the discomfort.

Listen with Intent to Understand: When feedback is given, it's important to listen. This means not interrupting.Focus on understanding the feedback rather than planning a response. You can also do listening checks by paraphrasing what you believe you’ve heard to ensure you are understanding. 

Reward the Candor: Feedback is hard to give to leadership. It’s incredibly important to show appreciation for the feedback received, even, and especially, if it’s critical. Follow up on the feedback and take noticeable steps to address any issues. 

Implement Feedback Thoughtfully: Even though not all feedback will be actionable,  it’s important to demonstrate that you’ve seriously considered it. Make sure for the feedback that is actionable, you communicate the changes you’re making. 

If leaders do this, they will not only maximize their own effectiveness but also inspire a culture of open communication and continuous improvement within their teams.

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Emily:

Fear and vulnerability is definitely difficult to face, but agree how important it is in creating supportive cultures. Thanks for all the tangible advice on how to tackle that, too. 

As you know, Edera is a fully female founding team. Currently the VC landscape has about 2% of funding going to women founding teams. We knew these stats going into our fundraise and it definitely gave us pause to try, knowing what we were up against. We’re really passionate about getting more women entrepreneurs access to capital. Do you have any advice from what you’ve seen in the tech community at large, or interactions with investors, to give aspiring women founders? And do you have any thoughts on how we, as an industry, can support more women in tech?

Kim:

Well, you all raised money and so you made it into that 2%. I am guessing you have better advice than I do on this 🙂

The first time I raised money from a VC I actually had no idea how few women got funded. I think that might have helped me, actually, because I was not struggling with stereotype threat. For a really helpful book on stereotype threat and how to confront it, read Claude Steele’s Whistling Vivaldi.

Also, it's important to design management systems to be fair. If you don’t do this very consciously, you’re going to get systemic injustice every single time. My second book, Radical Respect, offers some practical, tactical tips on how to do this.

It’s true - biases exist within the investment community. Women often receive vague feedback compared to their male counterparts, too, which can hinder their progress. Being specific and clear in your communications with investors can help counteract this.

Cultivating strong networks and seeking mentorship from those who understand the unique challenges faced by women in tech can be really helpful. Engaging with communities that advocate for diversity can provide support and even open doors to new opportunities. Having candid conversations about diversity with potential investors can also help in understanding alignment on how important these efforts are to them.

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Emily:

‍True - I guess we are that 2% now! The point on stereotype threat is super fascinating. Will definitely take a read of Whistling Vivaldi. 

Ok - now taking a turn to some different topics! At Edera, we’re big into how music can help you feel and focus. We always love to ask if there is any defining music in your past or present that you enjoy. Anything come to mind? Or if not music, is there something else that you turn to when you need to process or get in the zone?

Kim: 

I need total silence 🙂 And a good night’s sleep. And enough exercise to get my heartrate up to 140-150 for a sustained time.

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Emily:

I can totally appreciate the need for total silence, exercise and sleep! Speaking of restorative things like sleep - we view people’s ability to recharge as super important. Whether that be trail running, walking around Disney World, or coaching Rugby, getting away and resetting keeps us level and stay clear. Do you have something you like to do to recharge? Did you have to do that more or less while you wrote your books?

‍Kim:

‍I had to do it more when I wrote. I need to take a good long walk every day, ideally with my husband. I need 9 hours of sleep. I need to have dinner with my family. And I love to have a day on the weekend when I spend several hours working in the yard.

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Emily:

I really love how purposeful you are about what you need to stay balanced. It’s amazing.

One last one - what is one piece of advice you received that has stuck with you, whether that be work or personal? Why did it resonate so much with you?

Kim: 

Don’t forget to quit!

That is important because I can get so determined to make something work that I lose track of what really matters. 

‍Emily:

Thank you for taking the time to share some thoughts with us. We’re so grateful for your time, and support! For those reading along - I’ve also included some great references below from Radical Candor that relate to our chat today!

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Resources

How to Create a Culture of Radical Candor at Work + Why It's Worth It

How to Be the Boss You Wish You'd Had

Leaders Who Embrace Feedback Training Have Happier, Healthier & More Productive Teams 

6 Tips for Requesting Feedback from Your Manager

Gender & Radical Candor: Why Gender Politics & Fear of Tears Makes Radical Candor Harder for Men

8 Questions With Kim Scott About Bias, Prejudice, Bullying & Just Work